Questions about purchasing a Robo-Tank DIY Aquarium Controller Kit

[Rob F]

I think niksunen is on the right track with the LDD-1500, the only number that doesn't seem to line up to me is the input voltage of the LDD at 6-30V (robo-tank outputs 5V) but I suppose Rob has mentioned he's able to up the V to 10 so that shouldn't be a problem.

Actually I think I can up the PWM signal voltage to 30 now. The IC on the converter is what actually converts that signal and since it can handle up to 32v it should put out 30v. Currently only 12v is going into it so it can only put out 10v, if I put 9v into it I only get about 7v out so I'm thinking if I put 19v in I'll get 17v out which should still be in that PWM signal.  I'm going to solder up a board and test it out.

[ChrisC]

I'll check out the voltages tomorrow and let you know.

[jeremyh]

Hm! Welp I'm way more lost than I realized as usual. Oh well ^_^ maybe between Rob, Chris and you....you guys will be able to figure something out.

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Thanks a ton for the effort guys.

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"Actually I think I can up the PWM signal voltage to 30 now. The IC on the converter is what actually converts that signal and since it can handle up to 32v it should put out 30v. Currently only 12v is going into it so it can only put out 10v, if I put 9v into it I only get about 7v out so I'm thinking if I put 19v in I'll get 17v out which should still be in that PWM signal. I'm going to solder up a board and test it out." -Rob F

Okay cool, don't forget we're aiming for 19.5 volts. I have no idea how important that extra 0.5 volts is.

[niksunen]

I think niksunen is on the right track with the LDD-1500, the only number that doesn't seem to line up to me is the input voltage of the LDD at 6-30V (robo-tank outputs 5V) but I suppose Rob has mentioned he's able to up the V to 10 so that shouldn't be a problem.

Actually I think I can up the PWM signal voltage to 30 now. The IC on the converter is what actually converts that signal and since it can handle up to 32v it should put out 30v. Currently only 12v is going into it so it can only put out 10v, if I put 9v into it I only get about 7v out so I'm thinking if I put 19v in I'll get 17v out which should still be in that PWM signal.  I'm going to solder up a board and test it out.

I am just wondering how much current that ic chips last ? Because if each chanels uses 15.5-19.5V DC @ 0.7A. and there is like 8 chanel light, it takes 8 x 0.7A = 5.6A 

and those Meanwell ldd-1500 are kind of "big" and each of them last only 1.5A so i wondering if you tiny ic last those "big" currents, or if it fry :D 

Because it is another thing to just use that pwm signal to "control" some other device which takes the "load" (then current is small about some mA, even voltage is bigger) than using those light directly that signal. And if doing it, your chip/ic must take that load and still running fine (and not get fryed ) :D  

[Rob F]

You dont input that robotank 5v pwm signal to ldd input pins :) There is pwm pin for that :)  So that  6-30V  is using to lights.

There is how you hook it up 

Like you see there is designated pin for that pwm signal :) 

As I remember it from wiring up my lights and checking out the specs, the LDD has 5 pins, input voltage, ground, output voltage, ground, and input signal. On that LDD-1500L the max voltage input is 32v, I'm guessing the L is low power because the LDD-1500H can handle up to 56v. Typically when these drivers are used you use the max input you can and run the led's in a series. Then the drivers are smart enough to figure out how much voltage should come out of the driver to power the amount of LED's in the string and puts out a constant 1500ma current. The 0-5v PWM signal coming out of the controller and goes into the LDD driver, the driver is setup to respond to 0-5v PWM. If you input 10v PWM signal to the driver it would be bad I would assume. That's why these drivers are popular among DIY'ers when building a light, they work directly off an Arduino because it puts out 0-5v. So I have to disagree, these will not work. Anyone trying to dim these LDD's using a SmartController would have to drop that 10v PWM to 5v PWM max.

I am just wondering how much current that ic chips last ? Because if each chanels uses 15.5-19.5V DC @ 0.7A. and there is like 8 chanel light, it takes 8 x 0.7A = 5.6A 

and those Meanwell ldd-1500 are kind of "big" and each of them last only 1.5A so i wondering if you tiny ic last those "big" currents, or if it fry :D 

Because it is another thing to just use that pwm signal to "control" some other device which takes the "load" (then current is small about some mA, even voltage is bigger) than using those light directly that signal. And if doing it, your chip/ic must take that load and still running fine (and not get fryed ) :D  

This is where it gets confusing, at least for me. LED's are rated for the different current ranges and voltages required to power them. For example, if you look at specs on different LED's you'll see a pattern for the current, some require 350ma, 700ma, 1000ma and 1500ma. And then there's the voltage to power that single LED, it can be 3v, 5v or whatever, mine are rated for 6.3v I think. There's a formula to figure out the voltage based on current and wattage of LED.

So if you take one of those LDD drivers and input 30v or whatever and connect only a single LED that required 3v it would only put out 3v and the full current would be 1500ma using the LDD-1500L. The number in the model is how much current is outputted. Now if you added another LED in series you would need 6v to power them both so the driver would sense this somehow and put out that much voltage, current remains the same again. You can run the number of LED's on a single driver based on that. If your LED's used 3v and the driver could output 30v then you can run a maximum of 10 LED's on that driver, of course if you are powering the LDD with a full 32v. If a single LED required 6v you could only run 5 LED's on that single driver. 

Another thing, if you had the LDD-1500L driver but your LED's could only handle 700ma @ 6v you can run two strings in parallel. That would mean you would create 2 string in series using 5 LED's and connect them in parallel to driver. With that said its not recommended to do that because if an LED goes out in a string one of them would get 1500ma and would fail as well. If they are in series only and one goes out the voltage is adjusted by the driver and life goes on. :)

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Edit: Cleaned up top explanation.

Also there are two types of drivers, constant current and constant voltage, the LDD's are constant current hence they always put out the current they are rated for and the output voltage changes to match the LED's in the string. The constant voltage are reverse, they put out a constant voltage but the current output varies based on whats connected.

Edit 2: If anyone buy the LDD's for a DIY light its best to get the H version so you can run more LED's on a driver, that's the only difference. I think cost is similar so its a better deal. They pair up good with the 48v meanwell power supply. Amps of power supply depend on total number of LED's.

[niksunen]

Now i am confused :D

"Anyone trying to dim these LDD's using a SmartController would have to drop that 10v PWM to 5v PWM max."

I think all the time, that there are meaning to control those lights without that SmartController (because it is too expensive) :D 

If SmartController is "in the picture" things are diffrent right away :D Then you can control that SmartController directly to 0-10v pwm signal :) 

"The SmartControl 8 can be connected to any external lighting controller or aquarium computer with a 1-10V output and it will slave from that signal."

I thought SmartController is not used in this connections, so then you need something like ldd-1500 in between lights and power source or they are just to 100% brightness all the time :)  (and that something has to be capable of dimming lights by pwm controlled, just like ldd-1500 example). 

But clearly i misunderstand whole situation :) So forgot anything i say and continue :)

[Rob F]

Trust me I've been there but I have it straight again in my head. :) The confusing part I think is you're forgetting the LDD is a driver for LED's, the lights already have a driver in them. This isn't required. I jumped to the gun saying you might have found something because I saw the DC-DC converter and the PWM control but then it all set back in.

All drivers require some type of signal to dim, the LDD's are happy with 0-5v PWM so they work directly off an Arduino. It's looking like the drivers in these lights use 1-10v PWM signal to dim. If Chris can see a model number on the driver maybe we can find out on the data sheet what they use. Voltage going in to those lights are 19.5v which is enough power to run those LED's, I think there are 4 of them so that's about 5v per LED at whatever current they're rated for. If we can find out the voltage coming from the controller for these lights we know what the drivers require. The drivers that are already in the light could be replaced with LDD drivers, that's the only way they would work.

The thing I don't like about the drivers in the light is it sounds like when the PWM signal voltage hits 1v the lights turn off, that will be a bit of a problem with settings but I think only visual. For example the sliders to adjust the lights wouldn't be accurate, currently when the sliders are set to 0 the controller puts out 0v PWM which is off on the LDD's, but off on these drivers would be 300-400 or something.

Edit: Oh here's a link with the LDD-1500L stating how it uses 5v PWM.
http://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-ldd-15...le-driver/

[niksunen]

Trust me I've been there but I have it straight again in my head. :) The confusing part I think is you're forgetting the LDD is a driver for LED's, the lights already have a driver in them. This isn't required. I jumped to the gun saying you might have found something because I saw the DC-DC converter and the PWM control but then it all set back in.

All drivers require some type of signal to dim, the LDD's are happy with 0-5v PWM so they work directly off an Arduino. It's looking like the drivers in these lights use 1-10v PWM signal to dim. If Chris can see a model number on the driver maybe we can find out on the data sheet what they use. Voltage going in to those lights are 19.5v which is enough power to run those LED's, I think there are 4 of them so that's about 5v per LED at whatever current they're rated for. If we can find out the voltage coming from the controller for these lights we know what the drivers require. The drivers that are already in the light could be replaced with LDD drivers, that's the only way they would work.

The thing I don't like about the drivers in the light is it sounds like when the PWM signal voltage hits 1v the lights turn off, that will be a bit of a problem with settings but I think only visual. For example the sliders to adjust the lights wouldn't be accurate, currently when the sliders are set to 0 the controller puts out 0v PWM which is off on the LDD's, but off on these drivers would be 300-400 or something.

Edit: Oh here's a link with the LDD-1500L stating how it uses 5v PWM.
http://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-ldd-15...le-driver/

I think that those lights dont have driver in. I think that they are just leds in a "case"  and when you add power source to them, they go just maximum brightness. And if you hook that controller "before"  the lights then they are drivers (inside controller)  and now controller can adjust those brightness, but with out  controller led are just "dump leds"  :D or this is how i see this, but like i say i can and most likely are wrong, and just confusing everybody :D

[Rob F]

That might be possible but I think there's usually drivers for high power lights, I could be wrong though. Its very frustrating asking these simple questions to manufacturers, they always seem to ignore any technical questions and point to more equipment. :)

[Rob F]

I got some more info on that light, after a couple more emails they sent my message to someone who did know how they work. The drivers in the light are non-dimmable and put out a constant 700ma, the dimming circuit is in the controller. So its not possible to dim the light without their controller unless you swapped out the driver in the light for a Meanwell LDD-700. Sounds like that would be easy, he said the lights are in a string and require 19v to power up so it sounds like an LDD would do the trick however it wouldn't be full brightness as an LDD loses 3v so only 16v would go into the LED's, you would need a larger power supply as well. He also said the warranty is void if their controller is not used to dim the lights.

[niksunen]

I got some more info on that light, after a couple more emails they sent my message to someone who did know how they work. The drivers in the light are non-dimmable and put out a constant 700ma, the dimming circuit is in the controller. So its not possible to dim the light without their controller unless you swapped out the driver in the light for a Meanwell LDD-700. Sounds like that would be easy, he said the lights are in a string and require 19v to power up so it sounds like an LDD would do the trick however it wouldn't be full brightness as an LDD loses 3v so only 16v would go into the LED's, you would need a larger power supply as well. He also said the warranty is void if their controller is not used to dim the lights.

Good, that they finally give answers :) 

Is there possibility to change power supply that kind which give 22,5 - 23v output (or if it gives more like 24v, add somekind of resistor or something to loses that "over voltage") , and then it don't mind if LDD loses 3v, because there is still that 19.5v left :) ?

Edit. or you can use this kind of meanwell power supply. Then you cand adjust that voltage to proper (22.5v)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-NES-35...Swv0tVUwM5

[Rob F]

Don't quite understand why they would do it this way, I guess to sell a controller. Its probably a few dollars in parts for the dimming circuit that should be in the light. All their talk of an external controller is nonsense if you need their controller to use it and without theirs the warranty is void... But yeah it can be done just need a LDD driver and bigger power supply like the one you linked.

[niksunen]

It is easy, they make more money that way. They can sell controllers more, and using cheaper not dimming circuits they save something per unit, even it is just 10 cents, they do it. It is more profit right away :D

[jeremyh]

WOW! Grats on actually getting somewhere with TMC Rob. I thought for sure that was a dead end...didn't even think you had bothered to try to follow up. Too bad it's crappy news. All about profit these days huh? =( Thanks again man ^^

[Rob F]

Yeah I tried a few more messages I guess they figured I wouldn't stop so they transferred me. :) Least we know though. I don't like the high profits but without them I wouldn't be here. Thankfully controllers are overpriced so I can actually slip a few in there. :)

[jeremyh]

Okay! So one last question! What do you guys think?

Should I buy:

• Growbeams ($614.95, (I want 5 of them))
  
• Robo-Tank ($500ish)
  
• Mean Well NES-350-24 24V 14A AC/DC Switching Power Supply ($38)
  
• Mean Well LDD-1500L dimmable driver ($7.25)
  

OR

• Growbeams ($614.95, (I want 5 of them))
  
• AquaRay Lighting Smart Controller 8- ($399.99)
  
• at some later date get the Robo-tank (when I can get my wife to let me spend another $500ish).
  

Quotes to consider:

Low voltage & cool running utilizing large heat sinks & NO COOLING FANS TO BREAK DOWN due to higher efficiency drivers/PWM, UNLIKE most other popular LEDs; with the lowest running costs and carbon footprint of any lighting system available. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/LEDLights.html

Simply put, the more emitters along with more specific light output requirements, the more complex and expensive the circuitry and thus NO LED fixture is going to have specific output light energy with say 100+ emitters AND be even remotely close in price to one using 10 emitters if both are using correct LED driver circuitry. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/...hting.html

It is also worthy of note that the reef compatibility comes at a higher cost in electricity used due to less efficient emitters, drivers, & especially controllers used, as per PUR NOT PAR despite many claims of PAR µMol readings while overlooking the VASTLY more important “Useful Energy”/PUR. https://aquariumopinions.com/tag/aquaray-led/

Marketing claims include “replaces a 400 watt Metal Halide”. REALLY? I do not think so, maybe a 175 Metal Halide at best, especially when one considers how much wasted energy goes out as heat compared to better technology LED lights that utilize PWM, and more light energy is lost in less than optimum efficiency emitters and drivers. https://aquariumopinions.com/tag/aquaray-led/

...and omg lol: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showth...?t=2564806 (guy had 2 tmc controllers burn up on him...they were an old model that is no longer sold though).

Note that americanaquariumproducts.com and aquariumopinions.com can almost be considered the same site because the developers of both are good friends who seem to collaborate and agree on several topics.

[niksunen]

Well that is good question :D But do you have any other needs in aquarium than control lights ? Are you going to example measure ph level ? Or injecting co2 to aquarium ? Are you going to use dosing pumps at some points? If you are, i think what option i would choose :D

Also i like when having Robotank i can do so many things at my aquarium. Also i think it so cool to have nice 7" touch display to show aquarium status :)

So i personally chooses first option :)

[jeremyh]

I agree that the robo-tank is freaking neat and I love all the features and value.

I suppose my biggest concern is that I might fry the AquaGro lights via constantly elevated heat levels if the TMC controller and drivers really are that much more efficient than "traditional" controllers? Another concern is that I might end up making the AquaGro leds less efficient in terms of watts per PUR again this is only if the TMC drivers are actually that much better?

https://www.1000bulbs.com/pdf/understand...rivers.pdf

https://www.designnews.com/electronics-t...6129147250
^ If only that was more specific to what components to use! I'm 90% convinced I could copy a schematic to a breadboard and 70% sure I could learn the skills to transfer it to an actual circuit board (sounded like a lot of steps/pain last time I read up on it).

[Rob F]

Well I think you know I have a bias opinion. :) Forgetting about my controller this is my opinion on those lights, please don't hate me. :)

I assume you're getting 5 Growbeam 600 Ultima Single as you mentioned they have 12w which matches that light. $615 for 5 singles seem expensive to me considering you still need a $400 controller to do anything with them. I guess its easier to justify the cost because of 5 year warranty but it sounds like that's what they're charging for.

I think these are the LED's it uses, it says 5 of them ($10) a dummy driver ($3) and a case. That's all you get for $123 and still can't control it.
http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-M.../XLamp-XBD

I thought most good LED lights put out 20-30w and had a controller built in or at least a knob to dim that's why these seem expensive to me. Maybe they are worth it, I don't know a lot about LED's or fixtures but I think about my DIY light, it uses Cree LED's, the LDD drivers and only cost me $150 to make and it would take at least 10 of those Growbeam 600 singles to match it. Also been running about 2 years without an issue. I can get away with a DIY because I have a canopy over my tank so the mess is hidden. :) That's the nice thing about the factory lights, they look good which is definitely worth something. 

And honestly that's not my opinion because it could mean no controller from me. :) The fact is there isn't too many lights that connect directly to Robo-Tank because not many have external ports so the user typically has to do this. So I don't have any recommendations at this time but I'm happy to check out any lights anyone might be interested in using. This is something I need to make as well, I've been wanting to do that for over a year now but no time. Last night I tried to convince a friend to design one for me, fingers crossed lol...

[jeremyh]

Thanks for the input. I'm coming around to thinking along the same lines.

"Uses the newest generation patented XT-E emitter by CREE (NOT an off the shelf XT-E emitter) as well as patent pending Osram Oslon NP emitters" -americanaquariumproducts.com

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showth...?t=2181083
"... The TMC brand (Aquabeam 1000) is pushing improved performance as a result of using patented technology. TMC claims that "EcoTech uses older generation emitters since they do NOT have patent rights. ..."
someone responds
"So where's the patent number? What about Cree press release? Or are these some super secret LEDs that are only produced for this TMC?
Personally I see a lot of marketing BS on that website. :-) BTW you should be aware that a company called Orbitec holds the patent for ALL LED aquarium lighting and any manufacturer selling in US where the patent is enforced pays royalties. Search. It was discussed here many times"

I searched quite a bit and as far as I can tell TMC has a patent for "Nature Perfect" LEDs and that's it.

In a way I'm a little bummed because I thought americanaquariumproducts.com was an amazing resource for information. There had been some times in which I questioned it... though I eventually ended on "it's sources seem like very good sources!" (.edu/.gov sites etc). I did not however take the massive amount of time to look into all of them or to take a step back and see how logical the conclusions the author(s?) of americanaquariumproducts.com were drawing are.

In trying to find the so called patent on these emitters I had to google search with:

Code:

-www.americanaquariumproducts.com -cstrohmeyer.wordpress.com -www.fish-as-pets.com -aquariumledstudy.com -aquarium-digest.com -aquariumopinions.com -www.fishbeginner.info -www.aquarium-pond-answers.com

appended to my search. I believe these sites are all ran by the same person/company or at least by people who are closely related to  
www.americanaquariumproducts.com
(close friends/family/etc). My trust in these sites has significantly dropped.

I am now restarting my search for LED's. I'm going to base it primarily off of: PAR per WATT, spectrometer graphs (those that have more blue/red win), PWM dimming capability, and heat (if they have fan's they probably have bad LED's or drivers and are wasting energy producing heat and also wasting energy running unnecessary fans).

Feel free to let me know if you guys have any input on good LED's based on those criteria.

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Ugh. First time I've ever seen this from google. Lmao.

"com" (and any subsequent words) was ignored because we limit queries to 32 words.